Stacy (00:00.194)

Today on Hello Menopause, we're getting bold. My guest is Reshma Sojani, founder of Girls Who Code, bestselling author, CEO of Moms First, and the host of the podcast, My So-Called Midlife. She has spent over a decade building movements to fight for the economic empowerment of women and girls. She's also a fierce advocate for reframing how we talk about women's health and caregiving, especially during midlife. Please welcome Reshma Sojani to Hello Menopause.

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You were saying a lot of mid-like feels boring.

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Reshma (01:33.548)

Midlife feels like Grandhog's Day. And I think part of why pursuing imperfection in midlife, I think is so important is that imperfection for me makes me feel really alive. So when I give a speech and I don't hit it, or I'm... No, no, no, no, no, I don't hit it. There's a lot that go... Or if I go on TV and I I stumble over my words or I don't say the right thing.

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I'm like, great, because I want to get better. Because when I'm obsessed with athletes, I think to be really fucking great, you have to suck. And so I think what's so amazing about understanding this midlife is like, we have a lot more no F's given. Like we have a lot more like, you have, you gotta, you gotta try really hard. I gotta, you gotta try really hard to hurt my feelings now. Because I've heard everything. You know I mean? Everything's been said to me. So like for me, I don't really care about what people think. And so then combining that with like pursuing excellence is like incredible. It's like Nirvana.

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Yes, I really hear you. And the reason that that really resonates with me is that I used to say that, sort of before menopause and the menopause years, that I was in my acquisitive phase. I needed the house. I needed the clothes. I needed the perfect relationship. Everything had to look glossy because it was glossy on TV. Right. And that was sort of my standard, which is not realistic at all. And after menopause, I feel like I'm in my inquisitive stage that all I want to do, I feel like I used to be the smartest person in the room, which is like cocky and stupid to begin with, but also that now I want to be the dumbest person in the room. All I want to do is learn. All I want to do is be curious. It's it's why I'm starting an internship with like a master cabinet maker. Like it has nothing to do with my life, but it's like, why not learn all these skills? And you were saying before, perfection is boring. But as a kid,

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And definitely throughout my younger years, thought, if I can't win, I won't play. I don't want to look dumb. right. I don't want to look like I don't know how to do something. I don't want to learn. And now that kind of no-fucks given is like, I don't care if I look stupid. I wish I hadn't wasted that time in my youth. And I'd taken swimming lessons earlier or learned how to build a cabinet earlier, all things that I was afraid of.

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Stacy (04:10.774)

And that really goes away, I think, once you are in a position where midlife, assuming you're coming to menopause chronologically, that there is this sense of, I don't have the same amount of time. There is no someday. If I'm gonna do it, I wanna do it now. And we get to kind of grab hold of our destinies and what you were talking about before with athletes, this pursuit of excellence, discipline, repetition, consistency sounds boring, but it also creates greatness.

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Reshma

Yeah, I love what you're saying, Stacey. I think it's so powerful for people to truly understand because I do feel like it can be such a gift. So right, when we're young, we learn around like eight years old, like what we're good at and what we're not good at. I always remember this story. There was a bunch of journalists that had had a group of like eight year olds and it was boys and girls and they're giving them lemonade and they spiked the lemonade with salt.

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So it's disgusting. The boys drink the lemonade and they're like, spit it out immediately. And they're like, this is gross, yuck. They give the girls lemonade. What do they do? They gulp it down and they look at the researchers and they say, can I have some water please? And afterwards the researchers say to them, why didn't you tell us you didn't like it? And the girls look at the researcher and they say, we didn't want to hurt your feelings.

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So we learn at the youngest of possible ages how do people please, how to be a good girl, how to gravitate toward the things that we're good at. And so like, we wake up, I don't know about you, but like, I feel like I woke up in my early 40s and I didn't even know what I liked.

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I feel exactly the same way. I didn't have any hobbies. I didn't have any everything I did. I did it to excel it. And it would I remember being in and I love to dance. And I remember being in a dance class and I just couldn't get the Beyonce I'm wearing her today. You know exactly right. And instead of enjoying it, I was like getting irritated. You know I'm saying I'm like it and wanted to leave. And so

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And that is all conditioning of perfectionism. And I think what happens in midlife is you realize that, my God, I don't have hobbies. I don't know what I like. I've only gravitated towards good, towards the things that I'm good at. Let me spend this period of time, like you said, towards curiosity, towards discovering new things. And it's so interesting. I always think about, I don't know why this is like such, I always think about the juxtaposition with men.

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I see this with my husband. And I always think about President Obama. know, President Obama, they used to make such a deal about how he loved to play basketball. And you'd see him out there with these pro athletes, and he sucked. But you could tell watching him that he just had that swag. He just enjoyed it. And I used to watch, I'd be like, God. And I see the men in my life again, just enjoying activities or things because they enjoy it, not because they're good at it. And it's not because they're good at it or they'll ever be good at it.  

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Stacy (07:50.358)

I also think it's interesting in the way I think that midlife is about the end of people-pleasing, particularly for women and those who identify as women, even more so than men. I think that there is this moment when you realize, one, certainly with menopause for me, I was like, I'm not getting answers. I don't know what's happening to me, and I am done with this shit. Like, somebody has to do something. You just get so fed up with what you're being told, that you're being fed this kind non-information.

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Yeah. And you were like the first to like blow up the menopause movement. I remember like years ago being like, say something about that menopause.

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And you know, listen, I probably was like a little too early on that bell curve, but I don't think so. I'm always early, but I think it's like whoever's the first is actually so what I'm sorry No, this is like how did that happen?

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So I had started talking about menopause when it started to happen to me in like 2016, 2017. I was like, something is not right. And I had read, oh, what is her name? That book, Dr. Julie, somebody or other who's like, you the sex you're not having, the exercise you can't do, the sleep you're not getting. And it was called Moody Bitches. And I thought I got to this one- Julie Holland. Julie Holland.

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Reshma (08:46.113)

I'm obsessed with her. Now she's all into shrooms, right? Psychedelic. We need to talk about that because that's also something I want to do. But Moody Bitches for me was this aha moment because there was a three line paragraph about perimenopause. And I remember thinking, that's what the fuck this is? Like, that's what this is? How do I find out more about this? Right. And I'd read Survival of the Prettiest by Nancy Edkopf and like all of these things.

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Stacy (09:14.274)

Yeah, I learned all about psychedelics. Then I started doing my homework. Then I found out about Jen Gunter. I read the Menopause Manifesto. Heather Carino, who wrote the only non-binary book on menopause called What Fresh Hell Is This? I mean, I really started to talk about it. So I was approached by a friend who was working for a very big company at the time that wanted to produce smaller brands for niche audiences. So they did like a genderless deodorant for Gen Z and they did menopause. And they hadn't launched yet and they had already decided that this is this big company was going to be the tech platform and concentrate on that for these smaller brands and rather than run and own the brands. So they were selling these brands off. And I had a long talk with them about it. And I was like, I want to take this on. I have no platform if I don't have a company to kind of launch and sort of do this with. The amount of naivete that I had at that time in acquiring that company was the most major financial loss of my life and how much work I needed to do with so much product and no way to kind of get the word out there fast enough. And at that time, people were telling me that I was committing career suicide. And I thought, you're the problem. If you think that fashion and style are pretty and glossy and sexy, but women's health and rights is not, we are living in the upside down. And that made me more angry about it. But what also happened was that when I launched the site,

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we were getting tons of conversion because every, not conversion, excuse me, we were getting tons of hits because everybody was reading our articles that were written by menopause doctors. But then we're getting no conversion because nobody in menopause needs a new face oil unless it's got some magic proprietary ingredients, which I didn't do my homework. None of these did. They were good skincare products, but skincare and haircare while having, dry in both and needing more hydration is not at the root of menopause. And it is not at the root of the reckoning that midlife is. And I felt very quickly that I was going to be on the wrong side of this conversation if I was pitching something that felt extractive instead of additive. Yes, and listen, we see enough of that already happening now in menopause. In the last couple That's all it is. It's all snake oil and it makes me crazy.

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Reshma (11:26.635)

Like a snake oil salesman.

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Stacy (11:37.292)

So I was like, I don't want to do that. I think that there are enough brands that are doing a good job that I don't need to be in this space. And if I become an advocate and stop thinking about this as something to make money off of, I will feel better about the people that I'm helping. Because how can you take advantage of people when they're that vulnerable? Like it makes me.

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That's how I started Menopause and then Clinton and I went on tour. We did something called the Stacey and Clinton Show. We went all around the country and everybody I talked to between 40 and 70 said to me, I don't know how to dress anymore. I don't know who I am. I'm not 25. I don't want to look like my daughter, but I want to look cool. I want to look relevant. I want to look like I am clever, that I have style, that like I, you know, I've got some style, acumen. And that's why I made the line for QVC because I was like, those things are possible and they're possible at a price point.

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Reshma

Yeah, it's so funny. like, I need a dress for like a cocktail party next week. And I'm like, I can't find a fucking dress.

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Stacy (12:38.754)

I've got the perfect black lace dress for you.

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It is, I mean, I think it's like, the point is, like, I close at this age really matter, but figuring out exactly how much move, how much cleavage, what I do about the stomach area, all of that is, it's great that you're like, you've built this brand.

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But it's so funny that it brought me back to style, right? And then it's really understanding. QVC's audience is way past menopause. And so we're really trying to bring in Gen X, but Gen X is not watching QVC. So we have to work on qvc.com. We have to work on in-person events. Like I brought QVC to South by this year. Exactly, I'm like go where the people are. Let's have a dinner with Tribeca. Figure out what it is that you want to say to Gen X in order to get them. As it can just be me.

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Reshma (13:33.534)

No, it can't. Well, this generation is so damn smart. I mean, I think on all of these things, they're just, they're talking about things in a really different way. Even as you know, in in our meeting, like when we were talking about, I've been thinking I'm writing a speech, commencement speech on gender right now and about the relationship between men and women. And even for them, they don't see gender, right? In the same way that we were raised to see it. But

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It's still used by this administration as a way to oppress us. And so you can't not see it. That's kind of how we got fucked a little bit, by being, we're post-gender, but we're really not post-gender. So it's like this kind of really important ability to be, quote, post-gender in that we let people just live their fucking life, whoever they want to be.

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You wanna be whatever you wanna be, Go for If you feel it, yes, exactly.

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It ain't my fucking business what you do, right? It's your business. But at the same time, understanding that you can't ignore gender because it's used as a it's almost like the ultimate like I think a lot of the for example, conversation around D and I is not even about race. feel like it's about gender. It's really about how do we put women, men, the reason why you have high suicide rates, low graduation rates, you're not employed. It's because we gave these women too much power. We got to just we got to take that back, you know.

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And it is like one of the ways where because we know like post George Floyd, the people really benefited from it were white women. Right. Like those were the ones where a lot of the gains you saw being made. We've never actually given people of color the opportunity to really move into a meritocracy. Right. And so that so again, like sorry, this is like a non sequitur.

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Stacy (15:21.186)

This is not. It's just another way, I think, to really like, how do we get young people to kind of still see that they're still playing, they're still rigging the game that way by using this.

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Yes, and I think, look, I just saw the other day that the NIH just canceled their 30-year study on women. I didn't know they uncancelled it because I was like, this is ridiculous. even the things that you're talking about, the way that we're talking post George Floyd, right? To be midlife in this moment in history is also one of the most fascinating things that I feel like I've been a part of culturally is that you see these younger generations like Gen Z coming out as pan or asexual or whatever it was. But what you also see simultaneously as people in their 50s and 60s coming out thinking that they were gay because they didn't have any vocabulary, any kind of language in which to really convey who they are. And so it's like this awakening for, you know, multi-generations. It's not just what's happening. And strangely, I found out that a lot of women who go through menopause wind up dating women after menopause.

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I saw that at our dinner. I thought that that was so interesting.

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Isn't that fascinating? So I've heard that, I mean, and I think it's a couple of things, right? I think one, I've heard that it is physiological, like as you lose estrogen, your hormone profile is more masculine. That makes sense to me, sure, but I don't think that's the whole story. I think this idea of people pleasing, like for me, I just fell in love with who I fell in love with and...

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and then realized like I was much happier with women. But I think that that's because the people pleasing thing is kind of gone. And the kinds of, you know, the rage perfection was so much a part of the patriarchy that I was like, you know what, I don't wanna win and I don't wanna play.

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I listen, I feel like I grew up as like an Indian girl, like in a conservative culture, right? And whereas I just, I just did the things I was supposed to do, right? Like, and grew up in the eighties, didn't do drugs. You know I mean? well, I did, right. I was like, we all, all of us just like drank, you know I mean? And like a lot, like all the time and, and maybe smoked a little weed right back in the day, but not really like, you know, hardcore.

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Stacy (17:38.869)

I did all the drugs.

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Stacy (17:51.433)

well, I grew up here, so it was hard core for me.

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But I think there it was still like you were trying, know, there what I mean is in Schomburgl, I grew up here too, but I think back then, first generation, right? I think you're still trying to comply. And I think it's the same thing with sexuality, right? You're supposed to marry an in-person, you know mean? Have basically, get married in your 20s, do all the good girl things. And I think a lot of now women are really examining the choices that were never really choices. And it's really, really, really, fascinating. mean, I look, I mean, I think, as you were talking, I was thinking, every time I talked to like, my friends are like, where are the kids? Why aren't they out there on the streets? We just need them to blow things up. And it's funny, I really think that the I think we're gonna have to be the ones I think is me women in midlife that are gonna have to like, shut shit down, and like really claim it. And we have it in us. You I mean, to do that because we have come out the other side and been like, oh, this is a con. Like we are always being tricked. The fact I'm being sold Botox, you know what mean? And fillers and menopause hair cream or whatever the fuck, you're trying to move me into irrelevancy. You're trying to dilute my power. You're trying to, yeah, you're trying to basically tell me that I should go away. And the very same things physically that happened to men, George Clooney has the same wrinkles, the same gray hairs, the same punch on his balance.

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He's got 20 versions of Viagra that he can choose from. But I do think we are the ones who blow it up, specifically because we are the ones who are coming to this realization, I think this is Gen X's legacy. I think we are the troublemakers, the upstarts that really do have to change generations that come after us. The boomers are, sorry guys, I hate to break it to you, but it's just too late for you. And we do have the benefits of technology that we didn't have. know that it's, you know, don't eat so much fat, don't walk 10,000 steps, all of the things that can help our longevity. Not the Botox, not the, you know, labiaplasty or whatever you're doing to your vagina this week or whatever, because to me, it was funny. I did these two menopause makeovers for Tamsen's hottest menopause party in Las Vegas.

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And I did them for women who had experienced really difficult symptoms in menopause, but also just had really heart-wrenching stories, right? And one of them said, I had no idea I could feel this beautiful. And I almost, like I almost crumpled because I thought it's not about beauty. It's not about beautiful. I mean, I want you to feel beautiful. It's not like I wanna take that away from you, but I want you to say you feel powerful and capable and confident.

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Strong!

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It's wrong. And this idea that we're still using words like beautiful is the same reason we're selling lube to women so that they can keep their older, you know, older men happy by still being able to talk to them. And I'm just like, this is still the patriarchy. We are still talking about this in a way that does not serve us. And I hear it in every conversation. It doesn't mean we're not getting better. It doesn't mean we don't have more knowledge. It doesn't mean we don't have a better idea of what we need to fight against but I still see that like thumb of the patriarchy kind of like holding us down.

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Reshma (21:23.342)

And it's been going on for a long time. the first plastic surgery happened in the 1900s. I mean, they've been selling shit to us and telling us that beauty is age reversed, right? Only for women, not for men, right? For a very, very long time. I think, I do think the key though is to like, it's like Pamela Anderson is to really just like show the con and let women do what it is that they want to do, but recognize that they are not actually really making choices.

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Like if we're told that we should look like, you know what mean, Kylie Jenner or Kendall Jenner, and that's what beauty is all the time and all we're doing is chasing that, we're spending so much time thinking about our face and our bodies. And we're not spending time thinking about like taking guitar lessons or reading that book or falling in love with a woman or whatever it is, you know, that it is that we want to do because that the amount of energy that it takes. But I, I, I still, think that

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So it's funny, mean, with my so-called midlife and as I've been talking about, it's my podcast. Thank you everybody. I still think we're at the beginning of this conversation. We're at the beginning of this, people are like, midlife can be magnificent. I'm like, yes.

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Stacy (22:30.958)

But everybody thinks it takes a perspective shift or looking through a different lens at the same issues, and that's enough to fix it. And that to me is not enough to fix it, right? It's being able to see, like, I used to go to the gym to punish myself if I ate a cupcake. And I'm like, now I gotta lose 10 pounds. How far do I have to run? How many miles? As opposed to, I'm gonna get so strong that I won't fall when I'm 85, like my grandmother did and my mom did.

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Those are the things, they are a perspective shift, but you also need the discipline and consistency in order to do them. And that can feel very boring. It really can.

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It can't feel very boring and very much like again, like everybody else is doing. Everybody else is doing the thing and I'm trying to do something else.

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And this whole idea of, so now we're going to the gym to be strong and now we're eating, you know, good proteins to keep our brains healthy. And yes, we want to open neural pathways, know, in neuroplasticity by trying new things and always being, now we're putting a whole other set of pressure on ourselves in a way. It's like you kind of can't win for losing. And I think that this is a very interesting place, like a very interesting starting point for this conversation not just about midlife, but about menopause. And I know that you have like advocated for structural changes, like supporting women paid leave, childcare, closing the gender gap in tech. But how do you think that midlife and especially menopause needs to be sort of built on top of what you've already built and that conversation?

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Reshma (24:13.506)

So I always say like every time I start seeing some like negative self-talk with my girlfriends, I'm like, there's something going on here. And I feel like midlife is very similar to like the motherhood penalty, right? So the motherhood penalty is essentially young women make more than men until they have a baby. And then when they have a baby, because they're not given paid leave, right? Because we live in a nation that doesn't have paid leave, because childcare is unaffordable. They basically suffer a pay gap when they go back to

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And that gap gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. They don't get promotions, right? Like you're seen as somebody that is no longer a committed worker. And that's when the gender gap starts to grow. So I coined something that called the midlife penalty, which is exactly structurally almost the same thing, right? It's the physical, economic and emotional costs that you bear for simply getting older. And if you look at all the data, it's actually worse in midlife. So the biggest, biggest gender pay gap is actually for women over the age of 55. It's interesting, right? So you see, like, when you think about JP Morgan or Bank of America, all these companies that have programs for recruitment and retainment, they're all focused on young women. But really, the people that actually really needed all the older women that you're kicking out, you know what mean? Because you think they're irrelevant or they're going to have all these caregiving issues. Like, that is actually where we need to focus, right? So I always tell women, like, this is where the pipeline is the weakest and the leakiest. And the reality is, is because divorce rates are going up or women are living longer. The reason why you have all these women in senior citizen and senior centers is because they're actually being pushed into poverty because they have the most amount of discrimination in terms of salary, in terms of social security benefits. And we are not focused on that. And so, and in fact, you know, you're shaking your head, you know this, but the vast majority of people probably listening to this podcast are like, Oh, I didn't know that. So it's like,

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We're screwed, do I mean, economically for getting older, which we need to fight back at. Secondly, as we were talking about, like 15 % of women, you know, take, you know, either take days off of work or downshift their careers because of menopause.

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Stacy (26:25.006)

I think that the four in 10 think about leaving and one in 10 do, but those are also stats that I feel like companies can use against us, not to help us, but to be like, well, you're going to leave anyway. well, you're going to be a mess anyway, right? Which drives me crazy. It's not that we get the compassion for understanding this problem don't think that means that we should hide it. So because I think the thing is, is what I've been so impressed these years, all these, I remember I was at Davos, and we're doing some panel and some women start screaming, well, what about the menopause benefits? And I was like, you go girl, right? Like, like, it's kind of like, I'm flashing loud and proud, right? Like, I'm gonna do it out loud, like, I'm not gonna hide this. And so I think the more that we address that this is happening, the more benefits are kind of baked into it's like hiding that, you know, we used to feel like we had to hide that we were pregnant.

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And now it's like, no, what are your actions? Like this is going to happen to me. I need support during this period. What are you going to do? And so, yes, maybe they'll, they will use it against us. Just like they use everything against us. Childbirth, paid leave, like, you know, but that doesn't fucking mean that like we don't say anything. So I think, I think that, but I think it's like really acknowledging that. And then I think as you talked about it, it's like, I think

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Most of the time, women are ones doing the caregiving. And so it may be children at one side, but then it's like your spouse who may be dying, elder care, right? It's like all of these other benefits that literally lead to an enormous amount of stress. So my point is, is like going back to your question, is like, these are structural things. These are things that we need to fix and change in society, just like childcare and paid leave and other policies that help at moments where there is quite frankly discrimination against women's opportunity. And midlife is like no different. But the more we shrink from it, the more we accept, oh, this is the end and not the beginning, the less likely that we're going to do anything about it. The other thing that's really fascinating, feel like Tamsen and I talked about this when we talked, is like, we weren't supposed to live this long.

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Reshma (28:33.88)

So there's only like five mammals in the world, right, that have gone through menopause. And so women are living longer than we even have data for. So this isn't just a period of time. This is the longest period of time that has absolutely no playbook for women on what to do.

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And it's so interesting to me because what you're talking about also is what has led to my other interest, which is not just in aging, but in actual like being an elder and also death. Because I think death is big business or it's about to become much bigger business. But I also think that there is a concern that a lot of women, let's say who aren't married, who are single, who don't have children. This is a category who's like, you know, maybe given up their lives for everything but their career are also at a stage in midlife where divorce, if it hasn't happened or just separating from a partner or depression and decreased earning potential are at their highest. And it made me think a lot, how are we planning? I don't wanna retire. Where are they gonna land?

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I want to retire to Deerfield Beach in Florida like my grandmother did waiting to die. Does that mean that I'm going to have to work my whole life? How am I going to be able to afford to die at home if I want to? Or how am I going to be able to make sure that if I get really, really sick, that there is a point at which I do not want you to try and save my life anymore? Which I also think is really important for us to talk about. We're so afraid of death. We don't talk about that either.

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Midlife is one thing, we're not going to talk about the end of it either. So, you know, I think it's fascinating because this moment makes us think about the next 20, 30, 40 years of what post-menopausal life looks like. And that is structural, that is financial, that is, I mean, it's all of the things communal, it's all and I think women want to live differently. Like we want to be in community. Like I want to I want to live with my girlfriends. I want to I want to have communities where we have them. We can go play tennis as like eight year olds and go get a snack and watch some TV and take a nap and

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And also to be able to help each other in small community, whether that is like financial, if you need a loan or I can watch your kids or I can take you to your doctor or I can watch your grandkids or whatever it is. But this idea that if we have big government, being so authoritarian, at least at the moment, we have to come up with these kinds of grassroots organizations and particularly women, I think in order to do well. I think that's why teaching courage and bravery is really important because I just think we're so used to, as women, suffering silently.

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Stacy

Well, that's what I was gonna ask you about next, because I was like, you you said that we need to stop striving for perfection and instead we need to teach bravery. Amazing Ted talk, if you have not heard it, go and find it right now. How does the idea evolve in midlife? So when so many women are reevaluating their identities and careers and priorities, I think some of this is natural. We naturally kind of let go of this need for perfection. Strangely, I feel like one of the things that came out of my postmenopausal experience is I am so much less ambitious. I wish I was still like, know, so hungry, but I'm not, I'm tired.

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So it's funny for me, I started feeling like in order to go up, I needed to go in. So my relationship with God deepened. But you're right, the same things that would get me off, getting an award, doing a big thing, having another blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever, getting some other, it just, wasn't floating my boat anymore. You the things that I wanted to do that were like my 20 year plan. And so an ambition was my religion. And also it's your fuel.

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Reshma (32:30.806)

Yeah, it's my fuel. It's I'm a workaholic. Like without it, like what do I have? And so I would still say I'm in the thick of this. I have not come out on the other side yet. Meaning I vacillate, right? I think there are moments like, I'm over and I'm good. But I don't know how to chill or relax. I don't know how to have a good time. I don't know how to turn it off. I'm normally constantly doing something.

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Stacy

I feel so much better hearing you say this because like I tell you, I sometimes I know I'm a workaholic even though I feel my ambition has really waned. But I also think that that plays into people pleasing is that I don't I'm not trying to I don't need the external validation I needed when I was younger. I need my validation. I need to feel validated.

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Reshma

Exactly. I'm not trying to win an award. I'm not trying somebody to be like, you're so great. I mean, I need to feel I'm competing with me. Right. So like, if I'm not crushing X, that's about me. So but that's worse. I also the thing for me, Stacey, I wish somebody could teach me how to turn it off. Like, if I if I could, I'm in like if someone has some secret on like how to turn it off because someone was saying, Julie was saying this about psychedelics and I was just like blown away. She was like, the reason why psychedelics are great is because most of us are conditioned, the way that we're living right now in our world with so much of so much is we are constantly in fight or flight. I feel that way. And the way you're supposed to feel is like, imagine you're standing outside and you're staring at Mount Rushmore or the Niagara Falls, right? Like you're just in awe and you're calm and you're serene. And I'm like, fuck, I'm fucked. never, I don't even know what that feels like. Like I have glimpses of that, right? But how do I get there?

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Stacy (34:28.206)

It’s funny because I went I think about white lotus I'm like, are you kidding me? All this shit happens in a week It would take me a week to even be able to feel like I was slightly on vacation It would take me another two weeks to feel like I'm really in it and then I'd have to go home and I I never recharge in that way, right and I never I always feel like I'm failing at exercise or I'm failing, you know I'm not doing enough of strength training. I'm not doing enough of this but those are I feel like those are the same kind of criticisms that are structural, are part of that internalized messaging that we've learned over our lives, especially for women who've had to work their fucking ass off. Like we have to work our fucking ass off to be here right now. And it came with a lot of sacrifice, a lot of grit, a lot of ambition, a lot of hustle.

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And, you know, but here's, if I was being honest, I missed out on a lot. I missed out on a lot of fun, a lot of joy. Oh, I missed, I feel like I missed out on some, because I didn't have, it's what, I'm so grateful to have my husband, because my husband's all fun.

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You know what mean? He's all fun. He's all like loves to party, loves to be out, loves to, and he makes me go do that, right? Or go be with friends and have people over and do the things. I do, I wanna get this part of my life corrected, you know, because I do feel like we're still young enough where I can go on a hike with friends and be in the moment and gossip about, you know what I mean? And not talk about work. Like, you know, I'm still healthy enough that I can shut it off. So I wanna figure out how to do that. That's like the pursuit I'm in right now.

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Stacy (36:13.176)

look, I'm right there with you. Like if you figure it out, let me know because those are one of, that's exactly what I feel like. I feel like I've spent all my life working, all my life supporting people, all of my life doing things that were either in service of others or to keep myself afloat. That fight or flight survival thing is so real. And I think when you learn it at a very young age and you internalize it, there is a deep fear that goes along with it. And I don't want to be afraid. When you talk about teaching bravery, I don't want to be afraid of being curious or trying new things or taking a chance on something that may not work. Right. The biggest lesson for me from state of menopause was like, you can fail at something and it not be the end of the world.

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Reshma

Here's the other thing, you're fucking Stacy London. you're, no, I mean like you're done. Like I can't even, like you've done it. You've done all of it. Like, so if you get an incremental 20 fucking things, it's not gonna change anything, right? Meaning it's not gonna make you happier is what I'm saying, right? Same thing with me. Like I used to, like people are aren't you proud of what you've achieved? And I'm like, no, but I can't even fucking say that anymore. Like I'm done too. Like if I get hit by a car tomorrow, I'm done.

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I'm good. Like, you know what mean? Like I lived, I did it. I lived this fucking life. I made a difference. did, you know, I did my service to God. Like I am good. So, so what, so like what more, what incremental more, right? And so for, do I, do I need to prove? And I think the thing is, is like I've worked with this monk and you he really taught, like all of us have something that we're trying to unlearn or undo. So for me in my life, it's rejection.

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Right? Like I had a complicated relationship with my mother. Like I lost two races. Like it is, I'm just trying to get accepted, you know, and I, and I know I'm on that journey to be like, you know, and, it's, and it's like, I think it is just understand, like, so I think spending the time with yourself and in quiet and understanding like what's, what, what are you still hurt by? What's your trauma still? Cause we're still on like that dinner we were together was so incredible. Like because there's, but you need time, you know what I mean? And space to kind of unwind that and to do that. And if you're constantly chasing shiny things that don't even matter to you anymore, because they don't, let's be honest, like they don't. Like I could get like anything, any, no, pulled surprise. I'd be like, okay.

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Stacy

I mean, listen, I think you might get a Pulitzer Prize. I'm not gonna lie. From somebody from the outside to hear you speaking this candidly, I'm I'm shocked out of my mind because you're like one of the most accomplished women I know. I look at you and I'm my God, I wish I knew how to do that. I wish I knew how to do that.

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Reshma

I appreciate that.

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So, but I joke, but I think I'm just being honest. I mean, it's funny, like this past weekend, I did a commencement speech. I was in a stadium full of 40,000 people and I spoke and I fucking crushed it. And it was a rough, there's so many rough things that happened in and around it. And when I came home, I was like home, changing diapers, taking a dog's walk, nothing. And my husband's like, you want to get a drink? Let's celebrate. I'm like, no, I'm good, I'm fine. And I wasn't like, he's just like, no, we're getting a drink. Like you need to...

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But we were sitting there, he's like, how do you feel? I'm like, fine. He's like, see, this is the problem. It's like just another day, right? And for some people, this would be like the thing they do for the whole fucking year. like, but I realize, and it is true. And so like, then it's like all of the sacrifices that it takes to do that. If I can't even really feel it, I should one, enjoy it, but two, live your life, right? Like do the things.

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Stacy (39:55.854)

It's so interesting that you say that because I do think this is part of perfectionism is that every time you do something great you move the bar. Even just you know subconsciously it's not like okay you know you don't feel like it was a big deal like my friends had to convince me maybe I should have a watch party for my new show on Amazon and I was like really? And you're like, yes, but you should. And we should. You have to.

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Reshma

I was like, yeah, we should celebrate this, right? Like, I never think about it that way. was like, well, I've done all the press. Who's ever gonna see it is gonna see it, whatever. And it's interesting, you talked about your podcast before and you've talked to, you you've spoken about this messy, unfiltered experience. And what surprised you most about getting into the midlife space?

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So I was not happy about getting older. I was in the space of I was like, I feel like shit. my, you know, got anxiety that came from nowhere. Like my clothes don't fit the way they used to. Like people used to always tell me I look like I'm 20. Now I don't fucking look like I'm 20, you know? And again, I'm not getting off on all the things professionally that used to get me off. Like every day was just, nothing exciting was gonna happen any day. You know what mean? was every day was same. what was surprised so I did this podcast and I thought that I was going to talk to a lot of people who could would commiserate with me right. But it was the shocking thing is like, there's a lot of fucking happy people in midlife. Like and they got like their tips and tricks to the things that they're doing like Margaret shows like writing a joke every day, right. And that's the that's the thing or

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Zarna Garg, right? Like discovered she was a comedian out of like a dare from her kids to go to like a comedy class. She found something new that she was good at like 12 years after 12 years of staying at home. like people have these incredible like in this Julia's Reference, midlife's a mindset. So it just made me realize that like, yeah, like I want to write the playbook. I want to like basically like there's tips like anything else. I know I hate saying tips and tricks, so it sounds so like,

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It sounds so like 90s magazine, but that's what we're used to.

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That's too. But it's kind of like, yeah, like I know, and I don't think anybody gave us the playbook to be happy at this period of their life. And I think we need need one. We need to create one. And there's people out there who have kind of like figured it out. But it's like having those kinds of conversations. It's also like fun, Stacey, you'll appreciate this, because I feel like we come from the genre of like listening to the podcast that's going to make me a better successful person. Like, what am I, how do I manage my schedule? And this is like about mushrooms and sex and like, know, like anxiety and like, I don't know, like it's just, it's like all the other things because life is big and it's full of all the things and not everybody is about, not everything we're doing is supposed to be about professional success.

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And I think that it's kind of exciting when you hear people who are state, you know, who stayed at home for 12 years and then find a career or you're like, my God, maybe it's not Grand Hogs Day. Like maybe something exciting, like maybe the best is still yet to come. And I think that's like the big take.

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Stacy

That's amazing. And I think that's wonderful to hear. And I also think that's a wonderful mindset. My question is, for those who were overly ambitious or who have been workaholics their whole life, where is that new thing going to come from? Is it going to come from something that is more work? Or is it going to come from something that lets us let go of work? And I mean, I don't know the answer.

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Reshma

I feel like it's play or travel or God or like the other things.

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Stacy

So that's got to be written into the playbook because I think that there are those people who have truly found either they didn't have that reckoning and they've known who they were and they don't feel that kind of loss of identity, which I felt completely in perimenopause. I was like, I don't look like myself. I don't feel like myself. At the time I was saying to all my friends, like, I don't know how to age with grace.

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I don't know how to do this. I feel like I'm so out of my depth and it made me so sad. And I was like, my God, what not to wear is all I'm ever gonna be known for. It's gonna be on my tombstone and it's not what I want. I wanna talk about bigger things and deeper things and meaningful things that are still in service to other people. And that was really hard for me to figure out until I was like, I'm just gonna talk about what's really bugging me.

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Reshma (44:34.456)

Yeah, and well, that's right. And you're living out loud. And I think that's why you get hit the zeitgeist, right? Because it's like what you're experiencing, you're experiencing it out loud and you're living it. think it's just, look, I think it is a constant journey. We can talk about realizing that professional ambition doesn't make you happy and it's like live a different life, but actually practicing that is another thing. So I think it is like a constant, constant. But like, I also think it's like it goes back to kind of what Julie Holland said about waking up every day and just, you know, feeling like it's good today. What's going to happen today? Like how, like how like, and just having wonder and like you said, curiosity and like picking up new hobbies and like living life because you're always going to crush the professional stuff.

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Stacy

Well, I've seen you, I've also seen some of your commencement speeches, which are remarkably uplifting.

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Reshma (45:35.042)

You know, your gift is like what you're doing with fashion and style and like connecting the dots. And like my gift is my ability, right, to to communicate. And like that's the thing that I get energy from, too. You know, and I think it's so I found that I think that is a lot of people's journey. Like there might be people who are our age who still haven't figured out what that why am I here? And for them, I still want them to find that out, because I do think you want like it's such a gift, right, to be able to be like, I know I am here because it allows you to do all the other things with a lot more freedom.

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Stacy

But so amazing that you say that because I mean, you did Girls Who Code, right? Moms First. What is the movement or what is the kind of community that we should be building for midlife?

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Reshma

Yeah, I mean, I think it is. Look, it's very similar to I think the work that I'm doing with women and girls. I realize that I am standing on the shoulders of so many women that there are literally a rushman and Stacy who are having an aversion of this conversation is not on a podcast in the 1900s saying the same damn thing. Right. For sure. And we are here. I mean, they are ancestors. We're like standing on their shoulders. And so like our purpose in this lifetime is to give this wisdom and knowledge to as many women as we possibly can to allow them to have like free and joyful lives. Like that is our work. That's it, that's our work. right, so we're teaching out loud, right? We're living out loud and then teaching out loud. And so to me, as much progress as, I love what you said, I too feel like our generation, we were born at like, the middle of everything. So we had a life with and without screens. We knew what it was like to like meet, date someone that you met at a bar, right? Like we, like we had AI. We didn't have AI. Or met at Or just go home with somebody at a bar. we had this, and I'm so grateful for it, right? Because, and so maybe we're like in this generation, like, or this time in the world, like, you know, like the wise women, like the people that are, the wise women and like the agitators, like you said.

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Stacy

I love being an agitator.

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Reshma

Yeah, and I think that that's our role. So I think when it comes to midlife, I'd like to make more progress than has been made. Like if we can actually free women from the binds of feeling like they have to do something or feeling like this is it, because when you feel like this is it and my life is done, you can't be an agitator, right? You can't see this moment for what it is and feel like you have, you know, like the energy to get up and fight. And I think we need the energy to get up and fight.

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For sure. mean, you know, also, again, going back to women's health, why we need to understand it more, why we need to understand what women in midlife need to continue to be healthy post-menopause. You know, as you said, there are so many tendrils to this conversation. you know, I had this talk with an executive producer, and I've said this before, we were talking about the Jungian sort of archetypes of woman, right, which is like the maiden, the mother, and the crone.

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Stacy (48:47.24)

And we were saying, you know, there's actually this fourth stage, which is in between mother and crone, which is enchantress. And you can call that witch, you can call that agitator, you can call that whatever you want, but we're there to make some trouble, some good trouble. And I think that that is a stage that is actually baked into our DNA. Now, have we ever used it properly or have we ever, you know, been… free enough to have it in our society? I don't know, but that's what I feel like our generation is here to do.

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It's so funny. I was thinking about that as well. it is like, it's like queen, I call it queen energy, right? This stage is like queen energy. And it's like, we are, meant to unleash something right now. And I think it's so great that there's so many women who are in this space, working in this space from all these different, and we're having this like collective realization, you know, and menopause is a great vehicle in some ways for this, right? Because something is happening to us physically that we can articulate.

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I do feel like it is a breakthrough. Now that we are talking about it and I'm like, okay, my mental health is not deteriorating. This is what is actually happening to my body. That was the other thing. It was like, yes, okay, there's hair, there's skin, there's all the things that we're going to lament about getting older and anti-aging has been sort of the phrase and beauty for so long. But it doesn't describe the fear, the… complete shock and awe of what can feel like being hit like with a Mack truck and We you know, that's why I always say it's a reckoning to a renaissance You have to fight to get to the place where you can let things go and you can have this happier version of your life I don't think that that happens by accident and and I think that you are one of the people who is leading that charge and I'm so grateful for all your work. I loved having this conversation.

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It's so special. I've been dying to interview you just for this reason. you know, we do talk a lot about the hard stuff when we talk about menopause and mid-light. And we do need to start talking about the joy as well. And because this is sort of an action item podcast, I would ask, what are three things that women, that you feel like women in mid-life can do to kind of take on more of that curiosity, wonder, and excitement rather than kind of lean into the banality or the, you know, groundhog day feeling.

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Reshma (51:47.662)

Yeah, so I think the first thing is, like, pick one thing that you're going to do that's new and that kind of scares you and not for the purpose of acing it, but for the purpose of kind of being alive. You know, I think the second thing is get join, be a part of a community, you know, whether it is my soul club midlife, whether it is your podcast, right? It's like, be a part of a community. So you don't feel alone. I think the importance of feeling seen at this moment is really critical. And I think the third thing, and I'm just gonna say this because it's really helped me, is like, this is the moment in life to go inward. So figure out what your spiritual practice is, you know, and like, and really go there, right? Like really go there because I think it is really, I'm a different person since I started doing that. And I've let go, when we were talking about this point of like figuring out how to just turn it off, I am so much better than I was two years ago in terms of like my ability to just

decompress, turn off, be in the moment, not chase the... I I'm the person who leaves, you know what mean? In a yoga class, the last 10 minutes when you're supposed to lay down and like relax. I'm like, we're done with the pit.

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Stacy (52:38.914)

That's wonderful. But you know, it's so funny, I said that when you really are at a crossroads, just, Tamsen just posted because I was on her podcast. It's so funny. I'm like, it's this ring of us that I was saying, you know, you can't look out at a certain point, you have to look in, you're not going to be able to figure everything out from external cues. It really is about getting quite still and like listening to what you need. And a lot of us, certainly including me,

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I'm still not sure I know. I'm still not sure, like, just like you said, I don't know what I like. Some days I'm like, I don't know what I like or why. And why don't I like candles and buy myself flowers and do all these things that I know would generally kind of lift my mood, but I've never been that person because I've been eating dinner over the sink in order to get back to work. And I think that's okay.

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Reshma (53:30.242)

Yeah, same. Well, I'm so glad we had this conversation. Thank you.

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